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To me the kind of fame one gets matters...especially in terms of how the culprit winds up being treated.

Anyone will get "fame" if their actions or behavior are/is known...as fame in a very elementary and basic definition means "to be abundantly known" but what I meant more specifically had to do with how people go about internalizing the fame of certain actions by others, to where it allows through direct participation, the criminal or the "culprit" a chance at privileges and luxuries...that they do not deserve.

Dahmer had "fame" although extremely notorious more specifically (and still does) but to also feel that our fascination with him should allow him to have gotten off (if continuing to live) scott free and with a short easy sentence while being treated as a hero/form of social royalty is a totally different thing.

The snipers are also another example (Malvo).

Issei is very interesting to study in terms of his mindset, actions and psychology (nothing wrong with that), but the fascination with him should not allow him access to a "free life"...so to speak. We can certainly study him without granting him those luxuries. There are people who've done way less explicit crimes than he has and have been put to death. I hear he even makes porno films and makes very good money exploiting the subject/act of what he's famous for.

Star, I never expressed surprise (in other words ignorance) nor a debate that people like this don't get worshipped because I am very familiar with how serial killers, murderers, rapists and the like have many legions of fans..although I did present a biased opinion by describing (in my view) the worshipping of people like this to be "crazy"...or more so unhealthy. A good part of me still has some sensitivity even with knowing this fact...so I think I will always have some level of emotional disapproval as the initial post displays no matter how many times I hear/read/talk about people totally worshipping people of this "breed".

I think luxuries/privileges are both directly and indirectly granted to serial killers and the like by people who celebrate and worship their actions...no I can agree that it doesn't necessarily allow them to get off from being sentenced, but for those that are able to benefit from a flawed legal system or have lots of money via relatives they can enjoy a life of direct fame in many ways rather than by having letters of praise or philandering glances in court trials only.

So when I say privileges and luxuries, I mean in a way where they get pretty lucractive offers, can be guest on congratulatory shows, receive huge sums of payment for exploiting their crimes in literary publications, etc...basically lead a normal life that anyone who hasn't committed a crime of this nature...gets to enjoy. Perhaps we can say that the law is responsible for this...yes on a primary level but society is as well on a secondary level...nonetheless involved.

My gripe is "down to earth" in that its critical lead goes directly to "the average person" who'd be apart of this effect...so yes I'd have criticism towards some circles of Japanese society...and the like.

If someone receives fan mail in prison and so forth...perhaps that may seem like a luxury to some, but in reality they are not out living freely, doing what they want, making money and being regarded as autonomous intellectuals who are making regular guest appearances in the general media...and they are rarely able to consummate the relationships or carry on normally in one. Many are sentenced for life, are on death row, will be in for a long time without possibility of parole.

Although still disturbing, fans actions won't have as much of a favorable effect on the status of these individuals while in the conditions listed above.

That's pretty much my point in response to Enigma in why I think some forms of fame (that's celebratory) can benefit a criminal like Issei who is out and living among mainstream society...*causation*

Your message to me misinterpreted my initial post as surprise as if I'd never heard of the phenomenon of "dark attractions".

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MK - This is your response to me that my replying was address to. I know you know about serial killers and it wasnt to sound like you were suprised by the phenomena of people finding them interesting; simply that the interest in Issei, be it intellectual or celebratory doesnt surpise me. That's all i meant to say.

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OK...fair enough. I misinterpreted your response to me then.

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Also, im not saying that you do, but its very easy to disguise celebratory fascination with something as an intellectual fascination. Even the killers themselves do it; you know, the ones that they nickname "police buffs".

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Yes I've found that to be true also...in some ways both types of fascination could merge although there are many people who find the exploration interesting of unlocking "psychological enigmas" mostly for its own merit. Now could someone be taken down a dark path? With this queestion we'd have to debate on where an idea itself can be a causation for perverse behavior or is it the individual on a primary level who decides whether a perverse murderous idea becomes action and mindset?

Some people can expose themselves to many things and remain "intact" and sensitive...others either come to particular exposures already with an objective in mind or they have yet to know themselves really well and are influenced to allow fascination to become action/mindset.

Hmmm dark personal aspects could enter the equation but it would have to be on a level to where one could honestly say they had a strong attraction to a murderer, rapist, serial killer, cannibal, due to their specifc acts and dispositions etc. I personally find that the study and exposure to these types of people through stories, archives and the like creates a feeling of both disgust and speculative fascination...as well as deepER understanding of human nature in a wider spectrum.

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I still havent read that article yet because im on my lunch break at work. Ill read it when i get home and then reply some more.

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I have to admit that article is rather disturbing. Hell I will bet that many here would not be able to read it all the way through or at least without some form of aversion towards the end.

As I read, I found his mindset arcane in a subjective sense. Its like someone with that frame of mind can have a complete and literal perception and belief in objectification where an individual no longer represents a dynamic complex existence with history, intricate emotion, spirit and mind but just a mere body to possess, own, torture, and do as pleased with. There is also no sense of empathy.

Someone like this reacts in a parasitic nature. The physical act of cutting her into pieces, isolating the sensation of her voice, eating her and having sex with her corpse manifests total objectification (and possession). Perhaps it can also be said that he is portraying the ultimate form of "externalization".

Yes in many ways I can't help but to feel a flash of anger and disgust...because my mind immediately starts to "subjectify" this women's existence...in that she was not just a body...a mere vessel...and she had also an interconnected existence to others who cared for and loved her. She could very well be anyone that I knew...so that stops my mind from entering the state of his mind or any mindset that is similar. I think there are brief moments in my life to where I can be in a more objective state of my perceptions of others, but it is never FULLY actualized when in more "sober" moods.

I think stories like this are disturbing because it can cause you to look at others, at least hypothetically, in the form of objects only (in this case through the eyes of another and as something very uncomfortable because its so alien to the average person's degree of life value)...to be discarded and used indiscriminately. Many people don't want to or can't go the full journey once in that state of thought.

Comments?

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Sometimes people settle for images of themselves and try to "make the best of the situation". In gaining fame/notoriety/celebrity these people have in fact made the best of their situation.

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Ok this is getting a bit off of what I originally wanted to convey as I wanted to show why I feel it is -better- for a criminal to be locked up, put to death etc rather than being OUT and celebrated by the minority (and also saying that perhaps having them out can encourage more "normalized fame)...my point wasn't to argue that they aren't celebrated at all either way...

Perhaps you are saying that it makes no difference in their lot, degree of personal satisfaction or the favorable effects of worshipping....with a murderer being out of prison rather than in.

I would disagree there when considering many cases and what it seems what some murderers truly desire.

In regards to your statement, that's if they [perverse criminals] have that objective...many serial killers interviewed aren't all like Ramirez...and many aren't out living freely to reap the rewards of knowing how much of an impact they had to those who do indeed respect their actions or "work"...lol ...

Dahmer for example was killed nontheless in prison and despised by various inmates and he was very well known by then...

and Coral Eugene Watts awaits his chance at freedom more so than anything. He is highly satisfied and rewarded by the act of murder based on his kind of psychology. Right now there is a current protest to keep him in prison as he may be up for possibly parole in 2006. I am sure he wishes more than anything to be let out and running the streets again preying on women.

For many killers all they care about is the chance to actualize their desires...which is what prompted them in the first place....and even better if they can while at it be treated as direct celebs on TV, interviews and the like.